Alpha Male
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Alpha Male
Wai states: "By nature, human males live solitary, or in very small groups. Only the most powerful male then owns the right to impregnate women, who are living together in larger groups, like elephants and lions do. In females living together, the females protect each other against every sex-aggressive individual, and the most dominant male keeps away all his competitors. Like gorillas do."
"And if the women need to copulate, that one dominant, fertile, strong man is there. Living in groups, women do compete about ranking, but not about men, since that one man can copulate with all the females that are willing."
If we are living in a band of ten men. One man is the most powerful and dominant, and so all of the women want to copulate with him. However, the other nine men would want kill that one male off. I know I wouldn't put up with that, and not many other guys would either. Even just two men could easily kill off another man. And if I was the alpha male, I would feel bad that all these other guys that help me hunt for food are getting left out.
There would have to be some kind of organization.
Thomas
"And if the women need to copulate, that one dominant, fertile, strong man is there. Living in groups, women do compete about ranking, but not about men, since that one man can copulate with all the females that are willing."
If we are living in a band of ten men. One man is the most powerful and dominant, and so all of the women want to copulate with him. However, the other nine men would want kill that one male off. I know I wouldn't put up with that, and not many other guys would either. Even just two men could easily kill off another man. And if I was the alpha male, I would feel bad that all these other guys that help me hunt for food are getting left out.
There would have to be some kind of organization.
Thomas
trust yourself
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human
According to this model, I do not know.
But we are humans, not apes...
We have self-awareness.
Because we have this in a way no other animal does, we understand if we do come to realize it that we have an extraordinary dimension to us, which is just that being is everything... and that being involves love, and gratitude without any object of focus.
These are the truest feelings in life-- when all else is stripped away.
When we love other humans we recognize this about ourselves.
These other issues-- the life of the body; of biology-- are secondary.
Because of the above, I read the "Wai perspective" and understand most of it. But it seems to me to be limited and materialistic: limited (as all science is) to the perceivable universe, and the physical senses. But it is not the whole story.
But we are humans, not apes...
We have self-awareness.
Because we have this in a way no other animal does, we understand if we do come to realize it that we have an extraordinary dimension to us, which is just that being is everything... and that being involves love, and gratitude without any object of focus.
These are the truest feelings in life-- when all else is stripped away.
When we love other humans we recognize this about ourselves.
These other issues-- the life of the body; of biology-- are secondary.
Because of the above, I read the "Wai perspective" and understand most of it. But it seems to me to be limited and materialistic: limited (as all science is) to the perceivable universe, and the physical senses. But it is not the whole story.
Re: human
summerwave wrote: But we are humans, not apes...
We have self-awareness.
Because we have this in a way no other animal does,.
check these out:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/w ... 595810.ece
http://www.animalintelligence.org/2006/ ... elf-aware/
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science
I think this is where words (and concepts) can fail us...
(And where I can fail to explain anything in scientific terms)..
All animals are highly sensitive and organized in an astonishing way....
however humans have the equally astonishing ability of consciousness to recognize consciousness for its own sake.
It is an uncanny spiritual moment when this happens, and once it happens, everything is transformed.
We are not slaves to our glands (in a biological sense only), though certainly the body has its life, and it knows what is best at times our minds want to control it otherwise.
I am talking about the capacity beyond body or mind, that is simply uncanny, and-- while I have no scientific proof-- seems limited to humans, and occurs across all deeply spiritual literature, particularly in the nondual tradition.
It is remarkable, and unbelievable (to the mind) that this is so. Once tasted, one never really "gets over it." In some ways the only reason for our being seems to be to bring us to the point of realizing what we are, and of course not everyone does in a lifetime.
Scientists do not hold to the above, but that is okay-- it is outside the realm of what scientists take upon themselves to define.
(And where I can fail to explain anything in scientific terms)..
All animals are highly sensitive and organized in an astonishing way....
however humans have the equally astonishing ability of consciousness to recognize consciousness for its own sake.
It is an uncanny spiritual moment when this happens, and once it happens, everything is transformed.
We are not slaves to our glands (in a biological sense only), though certainly the body has its life, and it knows what is best at times our minds want to control it otherwise.
I am talking about the capacity beyond body or mind, that is simply uncanny, and-- while I have no scientific proof-- seems limited to humans, and occurs across all deeply spiritual literature, particularly in the nondual tradition.
It is remarkable, and unbelievable (to the mind) that this is so. Once tasted, one never really "gets over it." In some ways the only reason for our being seems to be to bring us to the point of realizing what we are, and of course not everyone does in a lifetime.
Scientists do not hold to the above, but that is okay-- it is outside the realm of what scientists take upon themselves to define.
scientists are interested in this type of thing
Unless you believe in the super natural, all these things are rooted in chemical reactions.
Some might argue that we as humans are slaves to our glands. For the most part we behave very predictably We are the top predator.
see this:
http://www.cubiclemuses.com/cm/blog/arc ... 0017.html/
http://kwelos.tripod.com/emergent.htm
Unless you believe in the super natural, all these things are rooted in chemical reactions.
Some might argue that we as humans are slaves to our glands. For the most part we behave very predictably We are the top predator.
see this:
http://www.cubiclemuses.com/cm/blog/arc ... 0017.html/
http://kwelos.tripod.com/emergent.htm
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not scientific
We can say though that we are neither the mind nor the body:
So to say the body rules all-- (rules the greater aspect that we all are)-- places undue emphasis on something we are not.
The body has a life; it lives within us.
But I would say we are NOT the body. The body changes over time; how could we be?... We are something else entirely.
There is a wonderful book called _The True Path_, I believe, by a a scientist/doctor, Roy Mathew. He has a sense of wonder about the sudden conversion-type realizations that allow people to drop addictions overnight; that give them a glimpse of something else. As a scientist, he wraps a lot of it in brain-chemistry type research. However, one senses that he, partly due to his background (a South Asian Indian Christian with Hindu traditions woven seamlessly into his family's traditions) and also the genuine bafflement he has felt while running an addiction clinic and seeing firsthand people's "conversions" that allowed things the mind could not comprehend, feels the limits of science even as he works within it. It is very interesting to have a trained mind (or body for that matter) and realize that there is a sense we all have that is neither, and in fact this is what is constant in us. It is amazing.
So to say the body rules all-- (rules the greater aspect that we all are)-- places undue emphasis on something we are not.
The body has a life; it lives within us.
But I would say we are NOT the body. The body changes over time; how could we be?... We are something else entirely.
There is a wonderful book called _The True Path_, I believe, by a a scientist/doctor, Roy Mathew. He has a sense of wonder about the sudden conversion-type realizations that allow people to drop addictions overnight; that give them a glimpse of something else. As a scientist, he wraps a lot of it in brain-chemistry type research. However, one senses that he, partly due to his background (a South Asian Indian Christian with Hindu traditions woven seamlessly into his family's traditions) and also the genuine bafflement he has felt while running an addiction clinic and seeing firsthand people's "conversions" that allowed things the mind could not comprehend, feels the limits of science even as he works within it. It is very interesting to have a trained mind (or body for that matter) and realize that there is a sense we all have that is neither, and in fact this is what is constant in us. It is amazing.
But the mind is the part of the body. Mostly the in the brain.
I'm not clear on this. What do you mean the body lives within us? Have you considered we are not that different than other mammals and our mind is not something separate but just the way the brain works?The body has a life; it lives within us.
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body
The body is part of us; it changes; it is not constant, and it is not what we are.... it is an object (as is the mind).
Our mind thinks we are separate-- that we have a separate existence from everything else in the universe-- that we are individual-- it is essentially wrong.
Neither one of these two things, that are aspects of us, are the whole story.
So I would say: the body lies within us; the mind too-- but one can realize what one is independent of thought; of acquired knowledge, or what we usually take to be "intelligence."
It has happened in every culture across time, and it is testament to this constant in human existence: that we are something else entirely, and capable of spiritual realization.
We are different from other animals in this sense.
Our bodies behave a certain way-- they know far better than our ideas, and ideals do, what they want: one simply has to listen to the body; observe it, as RRM has done, and as we are all doing on this board. But it is essentially just an aspect of us.
For this, then, we should treat it correctly, and let it live as the body wishes. But I think the capacity to love, which comes very easily, is also a greater sense, and the life of the body fits within that. It is a means of sharing that.
That is all I meant.
Our mind thinks we are separate-- that we have a separate existence from everything else in the universe-- that we are individual-- it is essentially wrong.
Neither one of these two things, that are aspects of us, are the whole story.
So I would say: the body lies within us; the mind too-- but one can realize what one is independent of thought; of acquired knowledge, or what we usually take to be "intelligence."
It has happened in every culture across time, and it is testament to this constant in human existence: that we are something else entirely, and capable of spiritual realization.
We are different from other animals in this sense.
Our bodies behave a certain way-- they know far better than our ideas, and ideals do, what they want: one simply has to listen to the body; observe it, as RRM has done, and as we are all doing on this board. But it is essentially just an aspect of us.
For this, then, we should treat it correctly, and let it live as the body wishes. But I think the capacity to love, which comes very easily, is also a greater sense, and the life of the body fits within that. It is a means of sharing that.
That is all I meant.
I agree with summerwave. We are not our body, and we are not our mind. They are within us, otherwise we'd be out of our body and/or out of our mind.
Yesterday we watched a video of Adi Da Semraj, who had an interesting way of talking about this. If we are our body, we should be able to fully experience it. But we can hardly experience more than a small part of it at a time, and then we can never experience it in the now, because it takes time to process the information of the senses. When you look in a mirror then what you see is the past you.
The same line of reasoning can be followed for the mind, or the sense of self. Are we defined by our memories? If so, then do you stop existing if you lose (some of) your memories? Etc.
In the end we can't even prove we, as a separate indivisible definable entity, exist.
Yesterday we watched a video of Adi Da Semraj, who had an interesting way of talking about this. If we are our body, we should be able to fully experience it. But we can hardly experience more than a small part of it at a time, and then we can never experience it in the now, because it takes time to process the information of the senses. When you look in a mirror then what you see is the past you.
The same line of reasoning can be followed for the mind, or the sense of self. Are we defined by our memories? If so, then do you stop existing if you lose (some of) your memories? Etc.
In the end we can't even prove we, as a separate indivisible definable entity, exist.
Re: body
How do you know this is wrong? I'm not saying I agree or disagree with your idea. I just don't think it is we can know this and say it is wrong or right.summerwave wrote: Our mind thinks we are separate-- that we have a separate existence from everything else in the universe-- that we are individual-- it is essentially wrong.
You use the words 'we' and 'mind' like they are two things. Is it possible that the mind is something that comes from the brain which is part of the body?
Are you claiming there is some kind of a soul or spirit that we have?
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mind
Yes, there is a supramental realm that has nothing to do with the mind (ask any musician; artist....)
We are not just a collection of brain impulses-- I would say the mind dissolves in the heart.
Sometimes in between thoughts you feel this acutely.
Also-- if you ever do any deeply relaxed breathing-- in the space between the breaths (in-breath and out-breath)-- they are not completely continuous.
We use constructs like time and space because that is what the mind can grasp; can comprehend. It cannot really ever come to terms with the timeless-- and it is very clear (again, not scientifically-explainable) that we all clearly bear an echo; a taste, of the timeless.
Go outdoors, in beauty....if you are taken (by a sunset; a beautiful view; the endless sky)--- where are you at that moment; in those moments? You really are everywhere and nowhere. You can also feel deeply in various ways the energy body (your true body), which is vital and alive and not bounded by skin- but extends beyond you.
Science confines itself quite deliberately to the perceivable world -- scientists know this about themselves. It is a subset; as the body is.
We are not just a collection of brain impulses-- I would say the mind dissolves in the heart.
Sometimes in between thoughts you feel this acutely.
Also-- if you ever do any deeply relaxed breathing-- in the space between the breaths (in-breath and out-breath)-- they are not completely continuous.
We use constructs like time and space because that is what the mind can grasp; can comprehend. It cannot really ever come to terms with the timeless-- and it is very clear (again, not scientifically-explainable) that we all clearly bear an echo; a taste, of the timeless.
Go outdoors, in beauty....if you are taken (by a sunset; a beautiful view; the endless sky)--- where are you at that moment; in those moments? You really are everywhere and nowhere. You can also feel deeply in various ways the energy body (your true body), which is vital and alive and not bounded by skin- but extends beyond you.
Science confines itself quite deliberately to the perceivable world -- scientists know this about themselves. It is a subset; as the body is.
I am a musician. I enjoy sunsets. I am not religious at all. Just because we are amazed at something that we don't understand doesn't mean it is supernatural. Although I say this, it is human nature to look for supernatural things to explain the yet unknown natural world. there are people who think lightning is a god, most people now accept even though we don't fully understand lightning, there is a natural explanation.
If you are going to believe in things you can't disprove or measure, I can't really argue with you. It is like debating the existence of God. I think it is a delusion others think it is real. I can't disprove it, they can't prove it. I think the burden of proof should fall on people claiming supernatural things happen, but they can't prove or measure these things.
I'm not saying we as humans know everything, we clearly don't. I'm just saying the universe if governed laws of physics, understood and not yet understood.
If you are going to believe in things you can't disprove or measure, I can't really argue with you. It is like debating the existence of God. I think it is a delusion others think it is real. I can't disprove it, they can't prove it. I think the burden of proof should fall on people claiming supernatural things happen, but they can't prove or measure these things.
Yes, I stretch a lot and do controlled breathing exercises. I don't understand what this has to do with topic. I can also hold my breath.Also-- if you ever do any deeply relaxed breathing-- in the space between the breaths (in-breath and out-breath)-- they are not completely continuous.
I'm not saying we as humans know everything, we clearly don't. I'm just saying the universe if governed laws of physics, understood and not yet understood.
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beauty
The mind has nothing to do with joy at sunsets...
And there is nothing to understand or interpret.
We are susceptible to the timeless, because it echoes in us: our real nature; what we really are. It is not so much "supernatural" as just the truest fabric we are.
We cannot really see it; measure it-- because we ARE it.
Biology; science; understanding and analysis, belong to the mind, which makes an object of everything-- one step removed.
But in fact we are seamless with all, and we cannot even "see ourselves" (what is really true of ourselves); we can only BE it.
Science is concerned with the subject/object relationship. But I would submit to you that there is a sense of vast subjectivity that includes everything/excludes nothing that is what we are. There is nothing supernatural about it. Indeed, it is quite direct.
And there is nothing to understand or interpret.
We are susceptible to the timeless, because it echoes in us: our real nature; what we really are. It is not so much "supernatural" as just the truest fabric we are.
We cannot really see it; measure it-- because we ARE it.
Biology; science; understanding and analysis, belong to the mind, which makes an object of everything-- one step removed.
But in fact we are seamless with all, and we cannot even "see ourselves" (what is really true of ourselves); we can only BE it.
Science is concerned with the subject/object relationship. But I would submit to you that there is a sense of vast subjectivity that includes everything/excludes nothing that is what we are. There is nothing supernatural about it. Indeed, it is quite direct.
how can you be sure of any of this?
There is some evidence to show that the feelings we get from a sunset are due to chemical reactions in our brain. Many of these are measurable and predictable. I'm not saying scientists that study this stuff and form conclusions are %100 right. I'm just saying the stuff you are suggesting is possible but there are other possible explanations. We can not know for sure.
There is some evidence to show that the feelings we get from a sunset are due to chemical reactions in our brain. Many of these are measurable and predictable. I'm not saying scientists that study this stuff and form conclusions are %100 right. I'm just saying the stuff you are suggesting is possible but there are other possible explanations. We can not know for sure.